Episode 14: Chirag Raichura

Speaker 1: Welcome to the secrets of success podcast, a series for recruiters by recruiters, I'm Danni Rainert. And in each episode, I have candid conversations about careers in recruitment, with some of the best talent that Team Eames has to offer. They'll be giving you a glimpse into the highs and lows of their recruitment, careers, their motivations and drivers on their secret to success in the industry. You can listen and subscribe on apple, Spotify, and other favorite podcast platforms. Let's meet our next guest

Speaker 2: Morning Chigs. How you doing?

Yeah. Very well. Thank you.

Thanks for joining us this morning for another secrets of success session. Excellent. So, um, first question for people who don't know you that are watching this, can you give some just a brief overview of your role at aims and the market that you operated?

Speaker 3: Sure. Yeah, so I manage the, uh, prominent, um, banking finance team, but banking and asset management. So financial services broadly. Um, so, um, we have a team of five at the moment, um, and essentially qualified candidates we recruit for all from the POC qualified level up to the, up to director level positions.

Speaker 2: Fantastic. And in that team, cause we're going to look up to in particular today, your experience and advice to managers in the recruitment industry around hiring and developing juniors, um, something that you at aims have had a fabulous track record of. Um, we've got, you know, one of our, one of our top pillars in a UK business, you brought through from associate up to principal level, which is, uh, a great legacy and something we want to replicate as much as possible, but that team it's, it's a mix, isn't it, we've got some ACS that have joined well Dan and Alice, a month ago. Um, and then we've got someone like Andy at that sort of principal level as well. So it's a real spread in that team. Isn't it? Correct?

Yeah. Yeah.

Fantastic. Um, so as I mentioned, main topic for today is, is hiring and developing juniors. We refer to them as associate consultants. That's our entry level position. I want to actually start before we even bring somebody on board as an AC. So as a manager, what sort of triggers the need for hiring an AC? And when is the best time to bring on a NAC a junior?

Speaker 3: I think, um, for us, it'd be very much a time when you are busy. You know, you, you were already busy and inundated with jobs or you were expecting an influx of jobs through a major project or the client and said, you know, be ready. Um, things are going to get clean. That's important in the sense that when you bring ACS on board, you want to busy desk. Um, in my opinion, the, the best way to get them learning is to get them on the job training. You know, um, my jobs live requirements. I mean, we all know those of us who've been in the job long enough that pipeline and candidates are important, speak to good candidates, new market when jobs come around, there's nothing more exciting than when you first store is actually talking about a job and a vacancy, you know, and learning the skills that we require in, um, in doing this job.

Speaker 3: So I think it has to be a busy time. It's it? Doesn't, it doesn't come without its challenges because ultimately it means you're busy as well. How much time can you allocate to the training and the learning development, but this, I go back to my point, there is I was trained on the job and there is no bad way to learn on the job. We can give somebody all the theory, you know, like as you guys do through the L and D um, so sessions from the web folks, they get the theory, they get the fundamentals, but like anything in life. And then until you pay game practice, you're never really gonna fully put that to its true effect and its true potential. So yeah, I'm sure, you know, make sure you basically, before you hire them otherwise, you know, they're going to be kind of coming twiddling their thumbs a little bit. Yeah. Nice to say is that they're calling a lot of candidates, um, at [inaudible] box. It's not quite the same rise. Yeah,

Speaker 2: Absolutely makes perfect sense. And there's a couple of key things there that I want to go into it in a bit more detail. One is, um, the, the training and development, which we'll talk about in a second, but the other is you mentioned kind of getting them on the phone, doing the job, speaking to people. It's a fine balance. Isn't it? When you're, you know, obviously a big part of working, being beings is about being credible, being a market specialist, being able to provide a really high quality of service to our candidates and our clients. So how do you strike the balance? Right. I don't know. It's something that we've talked about, lots of business between getting the theory into the APS and training them and building their confidence and, and, and kind of doing all the role plays and all that kind of stuff. And then getting them on the phone quick enough, the, you know, they don't have a fear of the phone. They're happy to just pick it up. It becomes really natural, but at the same time, they've got enough credibility to speak to those candidates and meet the level that's kind of expected and required from, from somebody

Speaker 3: I think the key point to always address first days, um, a lot of people tend to over-complicate what this job is in terms of recruitment. Right? And I think from day one, you've got to keep it simple, right? You've got to understand that the clients and the candidates we recruit for particular, when you speak to candidates, they don't expect you to know the real intricacies of what they do on a day to day basis. Everyone feels you need to, it helps. Right. But it's not going to be the deciding factor, whether you're successful or not. We are coming in it from, from a recruitment perspective, you know, from a hiring perspective. Um, and it's important that we come in with questions in terms of what are people looking for in that search what's important. Um, we can work on direct all conversation from there. That's the value that they are actually looking for, what is the market doing?

Speaker 3: Um, what the trends, you know, what, what can I do with my profile? Um, so that's the type of information I would spend with my ACS originally is giving them the key general market in the moment and say like, if someone asks you how's the market, these are the kind of key points and the outlines are, but don't be afraid to say that you've just started, you know, cause that's these days everyone's got LinkedIn profiles. If you almost try black, how much experience you have, they're going to find out straight away. People like honesty. And I always say to credit, like you said, credibility is absolutely key, but, um, alongside it, there's like three things. I feel particularly candidates and clients faces when they're first to candidates are looking for, um, with consultants and you know, one of them is credibility of the market, which comes up second is like trust and honesty.

Speaker 3: Right? And I think if you set that tone from day one and essentially say, look, I have just started, you know, if somebody asks you a difficult question, that there's no shame in that. Right. So I will go back to my manager and my senior consultant. And I'm just getting that information. People's honesty. They, my, that you don't know something, right? That's a skill in itself to admire that you don't know, admit that you don't know things. And thirdly, that they liked you. You know, that likability is absolutely important. Nobody wants to work. It's it's to somebody they don't like in any walk of life, gender they can choose not to. So, um, so I think those three factors and report them, but credibility, we, we, going back to that, the key thing that's going to build, or the factor that's going to build it is meeting candidates, right?

Speaker 3: It's get them on the phone, get, make sure the candidate wants to continue working in the role because there's an often a misconception that somebody's doing the job now is going to want to do the same type of job in their next move. So we need some, are they relevant to us? Do they still want to operate in the verticals that we recruit? And then what they see if the answer is yes, then, you know, as quickly as possible, we should be getting a very brief summary of a screening of what they're looking for and suggest meeting them because that's how you're going to readability. That's how you're going to find out about the market. We talk about market information. We can get from, from candidate meetings, from client meetings that perhaps we can kind of recycle that information and then kind of share it with other companies other so what's that way. But the best way is, you know, throw yourself on the phone, find out don't be afraid because you want, Jen, you want to just talk into other people, Ryan, I think,

Speaker 2: Um, human beings sometimes that can get forgotten and commit so human beings. But I think we also do empathize with ACS. The, you know, it is daunting and it is a bit scary and you know, being an AC and I wrote a blog on this the other day, you know, asking somebody what their salary is. That's really strange question to ask someone, we grow up knowing that, you know, we're quite polite and you wouldn't say to your mom and dad necessarily like, oh, what do you earn? Or you don't be funny and stuff. So then suddenly in your third day in a business, as an AC, you will speaking to a financial controller or something at a bank, and you say, you know what, what's your current salary? And you know, how long have you been on that salary? What's your bonus? And how long have you been earning that bonus? It's quite strange. So I think we can empathize with wanting to give the ACS, the tools to do the job and the confidence, but nothing can replace kind of getting them on the phone and that experience as well. Absolutely.

Speaker 3: Well like anything, like I said in life is, you know, your skills take time to practice. You know, you can put it in theory, but until you can train, it's the sport, you know, you've got to train to be the best and recruit and you've got to practice and go through the training process. It's the same fundamentals. But once you get over that stigma, um, you all, like you said, just talking to the human beings, uh, and really, you know, I think it's important to understand from day one, the value that we can add to somebody's career and to think about it, rather than that, you're just going to help them find their next job. You're going to get them to understand you're going to help them in their career. Um, I think a lot of people, you know, when they come in this job or even the longer the sentence, they, they lose the, the value of what our title is, which is a consultant, right? Whether it be an associate consultant or recruiting solver, what the consultants do, they provide advice, they provide direction, they provide solutions, right? So these talking about that's, the key is to narrow down on your initial pool, you know, where are you looking to go in your career? What's important to you. And once, once we have that topic victimization and that you've taken the time to actually listen to that and present with opportunities that actually relate back to what they say they're looking for. They won't, they will remember.

Speaker 2: Thank you. Um, we obviously at Ea,es, we hire into what we call AC Pods. So, um, and when they first joined kind of myself and the L&D team were responsible for training those guys. And we have quite, uh, quite an intense first few weeks, and then the first six months it's mapped out and everything, but in those pods, we're still hiring multiple agencies that start on the same day. You've had to add Dan and Alice to it both started together recently about a month or so ago. What in your mind is the benefit to firstly, the manager in your position of hiring multiple ACs at the same time, and also what benefit have you seen for the ACS and the new joiners of being hired into a peer group? Sure.

Speaker 3: Um, I think from, from my side as a manager, it, it's very useful to have, um, two different people because they're are two different personalities often. Right? And everybody's different. You learn one of the first things you learn in this job, dealing with people, right. That everyone has different personalities. So the questions that you get during training sessions, that people are coming from different angles, right. Um, um, some individuals are maybe a bit more, um, reserved at first, right? Get their head around things. They learn in different ways. Maybe they, you know, they, you know, their theories or somebody practices, whatever I can do, different styles work well. And it also engages, you know, both people at the same time to, to take other opinions on view and to see levels of speed of learning. So I think as a manager, it's very helpful for me to kind of go into those sessions, um, with people who've got different attitudes, right.

Speaker 3: Um, but it also means that we all are, cross-training where we've got big plans to grow. You know, her aims is important. Stephen, particularly we've had a really successful year and we're looking to build on that in coming year. So, you know, there's, it takes me the same amount of time to do the one-on-one trainings. The meetings often try to position myself at the desk in between them as close as possible to Dan and Alice at the moment. So I can coach them on the job while we're doing the training. So, um, in, in that, so it's, it's taking the same amount of time, but doubling the impact that we can ascertain that in terms of the benefit to, um, to them as, um, as ACS coming into the business, it's just people to bounce off. You know, like it happened to me when I first started my recruitment job, I started with somebody at the same level.

Speaker 3: Um, and it's, it's really bore because there are certain conversations. Maybe you feel that, you know, questions, you don't even want to ask us as managers, as much as we try and say to the, don't be shy to ask a question it's human nature to, you know, do you think you might think that's a stupid question or that's a silly question. Whereas if you can ask somebody who just started with you won't feel as apprehensive, you know, so, so I think it's important having somebody who's got the same level of experiences, you hear more about software, you know, um, and you know, you also, if I look back at the peer group that I started with, um, and that's not just two people's diet together, but you know, we've had a lot of associate consultants start in the last six months. It's next wave. Um, in terms of, uh, Em's consultants is, you know, you build a really good peer group of friends, more than anything, right?

Speaker 2: Just going to say that it's like a ready-made group still best friends I've noticed here. They will like go downstairs after work and obviously wear it on you. Lovely. We work. And then we'll making very good use of the free beer and playing on the pool table. And there's a good little vibe down there isn't there. So there's kind of the work support for each other, but then there's that kind of peer group friends, all in it together, keeping each other up. It's important, isn't it?

Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that any of us who've done recruitment know that it's an essentially, it's an emotional roller coaster ride. You have bad days. You have weeks, you have a good morning, you can have a tough afternoon, right. It got so much. Um, so to have that support and to have a peer group around you that you can kind of relate to, like I said, sometimes you don't want to go to your manager because you feel a bit reluctant. You don't know them that well, when you first off. Um, so you have to talk to people at the same level who are going through the same experiences, they can really relate to it. So I think it's really important. As I said, when I look back at you also make some good friends and that's important in this job is you work with right up to in the industry. It keeps you in the company that you work with throughout the years, in terms of, you know, my recruiting jobs, the people I've met throughout them. Um, you know, some of them are still kind of very close, best friends of mine, you know, they can actually give you the just work. It's a lot more wider in terms of in general.

Speaker 2: Absolutely fine mix makes a lot of sense. I'm sure it resonated with a lot of people watching this swell, um, in terms of kind of giving ACS the best start. Um, one of the things we talk about a lot as a management team is kind of setting clear expectations. So in some elements, that's kind of the more housekeeping type stuff around, you know, working hours, work ethic and, you know, uh, you know, kind of conduct and the way you'd expect people to behave and stuff. And some of it is setting expectations around probation targets, promotion targets, weekly KPIs, you know, all the good stuff that goes along with a role in a sales role and recruitment. What's your approach to setting clear expectations. And what do you think is really important for other managers to think about when they're doing that with the UAC

Speaker 3: First and foremost, don't, don't give too much information too soon. Right? Um, I think we all forget as managers, um, how much information there actually is to soaking into recruit, learning industry knowledge and how recruitment works and the key factors that make you successful. You know, I, I I've done it for almost 15 years now. And then we also did an experience where we kind of, you know, take it for granted what we know in our knowledge. And we don't quite, we forget right. What we were like when we were coming. It's nice seeing how much he took us to actually pick things up. Guy seems an age ago, right?

Speaker 2: It's an age you go for you. And I checked,

Speaker 3: But if I take about, you know, the key things that I remember from those times where, you know, staggered approach has, I was, I was given certain tasks to perfect, well, the key fundamentals of doing well once I could, once I proved that I was successful in getting hit my targets on those, I would be moved to something a bit more, um, involved. So, you know, initially what I would start, you know, on would be candidate qualifications, how many candidate qualifications, how many clients, sorry, Canda contacts are we going to make in a week? How many calls are we going to get from there? We're looking at meetings, CBS out there, the fundamentals of any business, regardless of how far you go in recruitment in a sales job, unless you can find good candidates, right? It's going to be very difficult for you to be successful.

Speaker 3: That's that's the basics about where you go? So the element of originally resourcing finding a candidate, which, you know, most ACS will do for their first call responsibilities, especially for the first three months, going into six months, they're still the skills that are going to be the most fundamental that for them to be successful. So I start with that. I would look on to push it down onto meetings, getting them to re you know, at first kind of me sit in on the meetings, lead to meeting and get them to understand, um, kind of how the meetings run and then as quickly as possible, you know, get them, shadowed them in a meeting and get them to lead the meeting. And then, you know, you're moving on to that interview preparations to feedback. So there is a staggered process in terms of when somebody is ready and then, you know, from that, that anywhere between kind of four to six months, realistically, it started looking at them going onto the client side and doing Sasol development, following up their own leads. Um, so look, don't throw too much at them at two suitors, the

Speaker 2: Nope makes a lot of sense. Absolutely. And in terms of, um, sort of using KPIs and kind of performance metrics, or no, it was sort of a daily or a weekly basis, you know, KPIs, you know, when I first started in recruitment all those many moons ago, that was just normal. I mean, I had like daily KPI times. Oh yeah. Everything, the whole law, you know, if you weren't on the phone enough, they took your chair away. All those kinds of things. We obviously live in a very different world now. Um, what KPI's is almost become a bit of a dirty word. You know, I realize sometimes we call them activity figures and it's like, they're just KPIs. So we work in a sales business. Right. And it's fine to say there's a certain amount of activity that has to be outbound and achieved in order to get the outputs that we're looking for. So how do you manage that conversation with ACS and how do you use KPIs as a manager?

Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think fundamentally the KPIs in any business, they're not just made up, right? They through research through knowledge of the market, we all have individual markets. They're all set, tailored to what our market and it's appropriate to be successful. We've gone back, we've got a, you know, a strong, um, internal finance team that comes back and gives us ratios and dashboards in terms of wall, what constitutes success? What outputs do we need to put to get the results and the, the NFI that we're looking for as a team? So, so I think that is, is really getting people to understand from day one. These numbers are there for a reason, and these numbers will do. If you're hitting these numbers will make you successful. Now, you know, I've never been someone who's going to Ram KPIs down somebody's throat. They are there as a guide to help people, um, to help them make success and be successful, right?

Speaker 3: What it comes down to is really understanding the, the success that you're going to have is very much going to come through your own, drive your own work ethic, right? If you hit these KPIs, that's going to help you do that. But if I have to be asking somebody, my team, why haven't you sent this many CVS, or why haven't you met this many candidates this week? I, I worry more around kind of somebody's attitude and their drive because we are here to teach people the skills to do the job. You know, how to be successful, provide advice. That's the position I see myself in, but the attitude has to come from that individual. And that if they're struggling with KPIs, don't sit in silence, you know, come you come and ask your manager, look, I'm struggling with this part. I don't really know why am I struggling?

Speaker 3: Is there any more candidates I can call? I've got less. I think too many people sit, sit quietly. You know, as a manager, I've learned as well, you know, it's, it's to see when people are struggling, maybe not hitting their KPIs is not kind of, sort of, Dimani why they not trying to understand where they're struggling and why they're struggling. And it's in their benefit to really work to these KPIs because ultimately it's going to transfer into money. Um, so I think that that's the main key is really before setting those KPIs, it's really explaining why they're there, why likes and how those numbers have come about. And over time, you know, good recruiters will, you should know your ratios. You should know how many CVS you need to send in your market to get an interview, should know how many CVS to jobs. You need to get a placement. And that if somebody is driven enough to be successful, they will relate that back to that financial targets. And, you know, let's be real here for right, is to be successful and to make money and to make commission. This is

Speaker 2: Absolutely. I love that. I think that is so important. And I think, you know, even as somebody who has managed recruitment teams, myself and I was on the sales side, I'm just reflecting back now. And actually that is something that I would have used more in terms of the, um, getting people to understand where those numbers came from, when it comes to the KPIs and kind of working it back. So that's brilliant. Thank you so much. So just to sort of wrap us up for today, um, what would be, you know, if you wanted a manager watching this in the record industry, that's maybe hiring their first AC first couple of ACS, what would the one piece of advice you would give them be as kind of your main secret for success for them making a go of it?

Speaker 3: Um, I would say at times you do need to be selfish, right? Um, it can take a lot of your time. Um, and you know, you've still got jobs to do often as, as billing managers as well. You know? So I think you've got to find the balance. Don't spend too much time, um, feeling the need to watch kind of what your AC is, are doing. You have to give them a bit of freedom. You know, you have to kind of let them make the mistakes. I always say to my guys is the crime is not making a mistake. The crime is not learning from the mistake, right. And really set, set the expectations early from day one that, you know, I have my own financial targets. If you are a building manager, you know, in terms of what I have to do, but I am always here to provide you advice and direction.

Speaker 3: That's what I meant in terms of application. You guys have to do that. I can't make you pick up the phone. I can't make you send CVS out. You know, that's got to be down to you, right. Then I will provide you all the support when you need me. But, you know, and it'll manage, it used to say to me, you know, there were some times of the day, he said, you know, don't bother me unless the question is about you making an active deal. Right? Key question. Then that was my time to actually be doing kind of my own client work or break in any job site. You need to the same time that the pressures that come as a manager is you almost need to bring in a feed, some of the ACS, right? So, but you need time to do that. Otherwise they're not going to be successful. If I look at associate consultants who have been successful, you know, have been those who have got early days jobs coming in and you need to ensure that job flow is coming in, you need to get, you know, they taste the money early, essentially because it's a tough job. It's like we said, it's a, like I said, it's an emotional roller coaster. So, you know, make sure you've got the job flow coming in, make sure you're there for support and advice. Don't close yourself off and say we're available. But you know, it's very easy.

Speaker 3: It's a lot of times what I've found is really worked in, especially in early days, um, has been awesome. All CAC is to actually provide solutions themselves. So if it's a question, they ask you something you think they should know the answer, just go back to them and say, what do you think?

Speaker 2: Do you think that's what I got trained to do? And I grew my first management training. Yeah. Well, what would you do? What do you think?

Speaker 3: And they actually know the answer. A lot of the time

Speaker 2: Built that confidence as well. Doesn't it checked? Cause it doesn't just make them a bit more self-sufficient and, and keep that balance between what you need to be focused on as a building manager and, and supporting those guys. But it actually starts to show them the, they do know the answers and they can fend for themselves a little bit. Doesn't it? Yeah.

Speaker 3: Ultimately that they have to, they have to understand that they're going to have to be as independent as quickly as possible. I want you to be successful you're you are running your own desk, you know, once you get up. Right. So, you know, like I said, what would you do if I wasn't here? What would you do? A lot of things when they actually reflect on it and go, oh yeah. And I think if you set that from an early, early stage, they start to use their initiative a lot quicker. Right. Whereas answering every question that they've got with, they're always, they're going to feel that's normal. And then, you know, you won't get any work done yourself. So as you talk all about the balance, right. You know, give them all the support, the advice and all the training, but make sure you've set time for your own work. And don't let that suffer because that, that's the hardest part of being a manager, because a lot of people will, you know, there's a conception that a lot of people, they go, great recruiters make great managers, and that's not always the case. And sometimes it's not for you, but if you enjoy nurturing talent, developing talent, me, I get more joy watching somebody I've trained and sort of nurtured through recruitment process, doing a deal. Then the more buzz that me doing one, you know, it's equally the same as me because it's a lot more rewarding, but not everyone's like that. So you have to be on that mentality, you know, um, you know, balance your time effectively and, you know, reap rewards on both sides.

Speaker 2: Fantastic. Thank you so much. Chigs, really appreciate your time. And I think there's loads of good content there for people to kind of go away and have a think about and reflect on it and hopefully put into practice. So thank you very much.