Episode 13: Andy Mackay

Speaker 1: Welcome to the secrets of success podcast, a series for recruiters, I recruiters I'm Danni Rainert. And in each episode, I have candid conversations about careers in recruitment, with some of the best talent that Team Eames has to offer. They'll be giving you a glimpse into the highs and lows of their recruitment, careers, their motivations, and drivers, and their secret to success in the industry. You can listen and subscribe on Apple, Spotify, and other favorite podcast platforms. Let's meet our next guest.

Speaker 2: Hi,

Speaker 3: Danni. How are you?

Speaker 2: I'm very good. Thank you. How are you doing? Yeah,

Speaker 3: Enjoying the nice sunny weather

Speaker 2: Lately and you're working from home today and you're not in our new sparkly office today. I think you read earlier in the week. One day.

Speaker 3: Yes, I did, uh, Monday through Wednesday, so I was there for day one, do it to enjoy that and nice to be back in the city. Cause that's what I spent most of my career so far. So it's nice to get back to the old horns and, you know, get everyone together, but it's also quite nice to have that balance today of taking my son down to nursery, I think.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Lovely, good stuff. Well, look, first and foremost, thank you for taking the time to have a chat with us today. I know you are extremely busy at the moment. Lots of jobs on doing lots of deals. So I appreciate you taking the time out. Um, and the, could you just give us before we kind of dive in to the, the main topics around secrets of success today? Just give me a really quick overview of your role at Eames and the market that you cover for us.

Speaker 3: So I'm a principal consultant in the banking asset management team. Uh, what that means is I focus on, um, finance roles from graduate through to CFO, uh, specifically within the larger institutional asset management. So I work with, uh, closely with Glen and Tom who deal with the Italians and side, uh, alongside checks as well from the banking side is my director. So it's a, it's a nice kind of way of linking the functions together. Cause I can work with the buy-side guys for, uh, some of their roles and leverage their candidates and also help checks with people who want to move from banking. So it's a really nice set up, but the good thing is, is being a principal consultant is very much a focus delivery role at the moment that opened it. Long-term it's going to grow into, to managing people as well.

Speaker 2: Lovely, great stuff. Um, yeah, absolutely. That, that is the plan. So, um, you've been with us now on D what eight months is that right?

Speaker 3: Uh, yeah, about that joined, uh, mid-January.

Speaker 2: So just about eight months now. So you joined just a principal consultant. You obviously also joined mid pandemic as well. So interesting choice of timing. Talk to me about your decision-making process around kind of moving jobs as an experienced senior hire with a global pandemic going on. Cause it could have been a bit of a gamble, isn't it?

Speaker 3: I think, um, I think like a lot of people, I was, I had my options open, but I wouldn't necessarily say I was looking, uh, I thought I'd offer a bit of time to, to look after my child, my wife's in the NHS. So kind of her job came first, um, had gone back to work and it was ticking along quite nicely, but just the opportunity presented itself. And, um, Glen, um, I knew he was hiring someone I know in the industry has a very good reputation. I thought, well, let's, let's engage with our find out what the story is. And I think that the, the opportunity to focus very much on the buy side really appealed because in my old firm I was managing one other person, but we had full coverage across banking, insurance, asset management in the UK Dublin and mainland Europe.

Speaker 3: So the reality was is I didn't feel it was the right market to be a generalist. I thought the best thing to do is be very much a specialist. And before my previous firm, I mainly focused on buy side before that. So he kind of came back to what I, what I knew well and knew best, uh, combined with joining what I knew would be a well run and highly motivated team that was kind of, kind of, it really, I was in conversations with a few other firms at the same time, but it just felt the right fit. So it didn't really feel like a gamble at all. Cause I kind of knew I was joining a team that had a real currency as to what my role would be. And so it's very much just come in and execute and thankfully, you know, it's worked out pretty well. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Excellent. Well, very well. I won't release your billing figures to everybody, but certain that you've had a phenomenal start. There's a couple of things there in particular I'm keen to sort of pick up on, um, obviously your emphasis, there was all around specializing and really focusing on a particular area of the market. We talk about that a lot to aims. I, you know, I did another secret of success session the other day with someone else talking about the importance of being a specialist. What do you think, you know, the benefit to you looking forward in your career will be to really specializing in that market and taking a more narrow focus. But

Speaker 3: I think one of the most rewarding things in any market that is going well and you are networked into it, is people genuinely viewing you as a partner in the process. A lot of the clients I work with, you know, we've had discussions about their own career. You know, I think a lot of the senior level, one thing I learned early on in my career is most of your clients probably would consider a new role themselves if the right thing came along. So actually like having those more on the level of conversations just means that you can help people along the journey, build those relationships. And I think if you're distracted by trying to do that across different markets, you never have that credibility and, and focus to do it. And I think that's the thing I like most is. I know what my role is.

Speaker 3: I know what a high quality candidate in that space looks like. So it's easy to be very focused and also know where to put them as well. And I think that's probably the best thing about being specialized in a vertical is that you become known for that. You become trusted for that. And actually all you're really doing is moving people around. And then when they level up, they come back to you to, to staff their teams. So the whole recruitment cycle becomes very, very smooth and consistent with job flow. Then you, you are not waiting for the phone to ring, you know, you get heads up because people know you're going to deliver. So I think that especially if you are a generalist, it's very hard to really build that trust.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Understood. No, absolutely. And then we definitely echo that at aims. The other thing you mentioned there, which I thought was really interesting was around the reason you knew you felt it was going to be a really good fit and the right role for you was around the clarity that we had as a business of the role you would be coming into and kind of where we would want to plug you in. Um, it's interesting. You mentioned that because I think what, what, I don't know if you'd agree, but sometimes I think what can happen with experienced hires is we see employers like aims and other visitors can fall into the trap of seeing a great profile, seeing good billing, someone that matches competencies values and going, yeah, we'll hire them. And then you put them on a desk, but actually the clarity of the impact that, that hire is going to have the market they're going to go after, you know, why you've made the hire, isn't always there. So, you know, that's obviously you, you, that you say that's give that gave you the real confidence that because there was a specific role and we're really clear about what we needed that made it a more, you know, a more appealing opportunity for you.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And I think in my last role, I was managing one person and, and you know, that move was to get the management job title. So actually a management role into a billing role may not be what a lot of people would see as that kind of progression in recruitment. Because I think it's very much, I saw a LinkedIn post from Sanje today about like, you know, we're fixated on making managers. And I think what I, what I learned really is that the, what I needed next in a row was put just to get my head down and get back to basics a little bit and, and in an environment where like I knew exactly what my deliverables were go do that build a bit of confidence back out because the last year it was a bit tricky in terms of kind of, you know, everything around the market. And I think that really appealed to just to say, this is what you're going to do. Don't worry about anything else, just go and, and transact. And I think that that really lit the fire a little bit and the bit of the belief that, okay, this is, this is what I can do. I am good at it. And probably have also enjoyed not having the distractions that sometimes leading people.

Speaker 3: It's been a nice balance just to kind of, you know, get back into something I know I enjoy and just wrap a real function.

Speaker 2: I think that is really, I'm sure people watching this experienced recruiters that will really resonate there does seem to be that opinion, that the next role has got to have a bigger job title and manage more people and stuff, but actually to reflect on what you need at that point in your career to set you on the right trajectory. Um, I think that's fantastic advice with, with kind of advice in mind, you know, to other people that are making, you know, considering a move, especially at senior level like yourself at that principal level, what do you think people should be considering when they're thinking about a move and, and kind of advice you would give people in terms of how they approach their job search?

Speaker 3: Well, I think the thing that I learned from the moves I've made and the teams I've worked in, cause I've worked in multiple different teams within the businesses I've been in, is there is no substitute for strong leadership. And I think that is both sometimes the exact level of an organization, but just make sure you have a, a line manager you genuinely buy into it because I think if you've got that and there's someone who has a good reputation in the market, it's much more enjoyable to kind to work around talented people as well. I think very much focused on the people you're going to be working with day to day, you know, can they improve you? Can they add value to you? I don't think even if you've got 5, 6, 10 years worth of experience, you should think you've done the learning stage. You should always be kind of understanding how they go about business and add it and leveling up your own skills.

Speaker 3: But I think the other thing in terms of this session, it's just be, just be very strict with what you're looking for. Don't fall into the trap of maybe chasing a salary or chasing a job title or chasing whatever. Just, just very much focused on what, you know, you will be able to deliver and be very consistent with that narrative. I think that's one thing that served me well is when I was coming into the businesses, all the conversations I had, you know, it was very much framed around consistent narrative, consistent desk. There were no surprises. And I think that really helped when I started on day one. I knew what the job was.

Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely no fantastic advice. And you know, I've, I've referenced earlier. You genuinely have had, I know you're very humble about it, but you have had a phenomenal start as the new startups are in the business. Um, irrespective of market, you know, it's, it's been great. What did you do once you obviously knew you were going to join names, there was a brief period before you started. What, what, if anything, did you do to make sure you kind of set yourself up for success, whether it was kind of in your own mind, things that you actually went and did well, how did you set up for success?

Speaker 3: Um, a couple of weeks between resignation and starting, which coincided with Christmas. So actually what I did was nothing really. We just take that time to have a bit of a break. Um, you know, it was the time with family. Um, I kind of, then as it approached day one, it was just kind of like very much getting the right mental state to say, right. You know, hit the ground running, be busy. I mean, the reality is in recruitment when you're building a desk is there's no shortage just for time on the phone. Really. So it was just getting the mindset right to say, right. It's a, it's a blank piece of paper. Where do you start? Um, so really that the thing I did was actually just decompressed from the job, the job search, the resignation, got myself mentally ready to start. So that by the time it all rolled around, I, I was, I was hungry to get cracking.

Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. So you could really make that the focus from, from day one. And what, what did you, um, focus on? Obviously you were 360 recruiter at senior level billing. Was it, did you go after candidates first? Did you speak to clients? Did you start mapping out your market? You know, what was your kind of very top level overview of your month? One plan if you like?

Speaker 3: Uh, well, the first thing I did was get an idea as to where historically the desk had presence really just, you know, look at where the PSLs are, look at where the previous business has been, make sure you're covering off, you know, that the relationships where they're already there and trying to get in front of people in a virtual setting to kind of go that that's, that's, you know, really you cover that off in the first couple of days in terms of actually building the presence. It just, I have a mantra which is called everything that moves really there's no shortage of just getting on the phone, talking to people, finding out what's going in the market, who's willing to move. I think January is a good time to start something because within the cycle of bonuses that we see in my market, it's a good time to get that year's placements lined up.

Speaker 3: Um, and I think that that worked really well because it was focused in terms of what I was looking for. It was simply a case of building some good booleans based on their kind of the job posts and LinkedIn and, and just getting the name out there to say, right, this is who I am. This is what I do, actually with making a move. You can't reconnect with the firms that you've been dealing with most recently. So it's a good opportunity to fill that six month window with new business. And luckily since, you know, the, the restrictions have lifted, I've been able to reengage with my old clients and, and they've been happy to work. So I think that's been really rewarding as well to say, building something new, going back to the old relationships as well, and that hopefully will, will give the pipeline for success over a couple of years. Yeah,

Speaker 2: Absolutely. Fantastic. And finally, what are you kind of talking about sort of next year? And I can't be for me referencing next year yet, but you know, we're going to come in hurdling into Q4, but looking over the next 12 months, what are you most excited about in terms of your, your career at Eames and, and what you're looking forward to?

Speaker 3: Well, it's good timing to ask that question really, because on Monday we've got two new starters in the team, so he's coming in to help, uh, on the, the banking and the buy side. So I think what I'm looking forward to is just getting back into some mentoring again, you know, like, um, I've also been asked to mentor some other people from other teams as well. Like the buddy system that's kicking off as well. So I think it's going to be nice to be back in the office a few days a week, helping people find their feet in recruitment. I've always found that really rewarding. So I'm actually like probably the, the training and coaching side. I enjoy more than the management phase, which I know very, very similar, but you know, that they are also different roles. So I think that's what I'm going to enjoy as, you know, helping people on their journey, watching them make their first placements watching, you know, the penny drop when they figure out that, you know, it can be done. And Johnny Jones encouraged some healthy competition between the earth and to keep themselves motivated. So I think that that's what I'm looking forward to. And hopefully if all goes to plan, you know, there'll be some formal leadership of those people down the line, but I think that's quite exciting that the teams grow in, you know, we we've had a great nation across all of the parts of BAM, but it's now like, let's move to the next level, but that excites me quite a lot to see what happens next year.

Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. And you know what, I genuinely share that with you as well. When the guys start on Monday, we'll be up to 11 ACS in the UK business at the moment in London, which I think is the most we've ever had at one time. And I absolutely love working with them. I get an absolute kick out of it. It's great to see people come in and just get bitten by the recruitment bug and absolutely loving it. So, uh, so yeah, absolutely. It's going to be really exciting times and I know we're really pleased to be having you involved in that as well. Fantastic, Andy, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time. And I think, you know, there's some great top tips and secrets of success in there, but people to take away.

Speaker 3: Thanks so much, have a good one.