Episode 12: Will Bragg

Speaker 1: Welcome to the secrets of success podcast, a series for recruiters, by recruiters. I'm Danni Rainert. And in each episode, I have candid conversations about careers in recruitment with some of the best talent that Team Eames has to offer. They'll be giving you a glimpse into the highs and lows of their recruitment careers, their motivations, and drivers, and their secret to success in the industry. You can listen and subscribe on Apple, Spotify, and other favorite podcast platforms. Let's meet our next guest.

Speaker 2: Thank for joining us for another episode of secrets of success. Appreciate you taking the time. No problem. Absolutely. So this is the first session in our brand new office. So we've obviously made the move over to the city. Yeah. First person in the new office, you were sat in our new kitchen at the moment. Aren't you?

Speaker 3: Yeah. Very nice.

Speaker 2: It's pretty cool. Isn't it?

Speaker 3: Yeah, had three or four protein bars already this morning.

Speaker 2: Excellent. Yeah, I know there were some, there was some croissants on the top of this morning and I was like, don't touch that. Don't touch those. Um, so yeah, we've, it's been a, been a little while coming now moving into the new office and we've obviously got our news kind of flexible working in place and everything. And, uh, have you already seen the benefit because obviously you've got team now, which we're going to talk a little bit about this morning, but, um, have you seen the benefit for you and your guys being in kind of new environment, new working pattern and stuff this week?

Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. It's not easier for catch-ups and skiing once I would say, rather than having to arrange calls all the time, just tapping each other on the shoulder or stuff. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah. That contact time in the office is important. Isn't it? And then, uh, and then having a bit of a blend of work from home still as well. I think everyone's, everyone's quite excited for it.

Speaker 3: I think give it a new way of working as well. Offices really had to up their game to get people to come in. And I think businesses who own to offices, all the offices, like our old office, they're all going to really struggle. I think.

Speaker 2: Yeah. It's got to be somewhere you want to go in for the day. Hasn't it. And give something a bit different.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely

Speaker 2: Good stuff. So look, I'm not gonna say it's up to so much. Um, there's a couple of other sort of key topics. We'll have a chat about this morning. So the first one I kind of referenced it just now you've obviously got a team now. Um, and that's something that's kind of grown over the last 12 months. Um, and you all going through that, you know, we've chatted about it recently, you and I, that, that kind of age old struggle of billing manager and, and splitting the time up and everything. But, um, talk to me about why you decided to go down the management route and not just stick to the billing cause your billings were really high and obviously, you know, earning good commission, all that kind of stuff. So what, what kind of drew you to the management side of things as well?

Speaker 3: I think it's just a completely different skillset, isn't it? It really doesn't matter what job you're in management is a whole different ball game. I just want to add that kind of third dementia is my skillset. That makes sense is an extra bit of target billings. Here's a bit more money just going around and doing what you're doing. And I think the management thing throws a whole different plate, which is what I thought would be more challenging. It's something I'd enjoy a lot more seeing other people grow and develop that careers and improving.

Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. And you've obviously been in tech with heart flat, both of your guys, you've got one at associate consultant level and I'm one person that you've bought through from associate consultant to consultant. Who's doing really well, Adam. Um, and what, what through that period over the last 12 months, he's also been quite a strange time to take on a team as well with remote working and, and COVID and everything. So what are, what have you found the main challenges for you of Ben making that transition from a, a pure biller to a billing manager?

Speaker 3: Um, I think just in terms of managing the team, when it comes to, um, training them, it's difficult when you're not on the best of them hearing what they're saying on the phone, all that sort of stuff. It's very difficult to keep track of both how they're structuring their day. We'll kind of roll with seeing all that kind of stuff. Um, I can't really gauge that by calling them every two hours. And if you're calling them every hour, every two hours, it comes micro-managing as well. That's not my style. I don't want to be in that situation. So the main challenge. Yeah.

Speaker 2: So that's fine then kind of striking that balance. Isn't it? Because obviously you're referring to when the guys are working from home, what, what have you been doing to try and overcome that to what have you kind of put in place? Because I'd like you to say you don't want to micromanage, but at the same time you don't want to kind of leave them for eight hours to get on with it when they're really junior sat over in their bedroom or whatever. So what, what have you put in place to try and find a good kind of balance,

Speaker 3: But all you can do really is just have regular video call, catch ups, try and talk through what you're going to prioritize. So let's say from a Monday, throughout the week on a Wednesday, how it's kind of going what you've got left to prioritize until the Friday on a Friday, just kind of summarize the key objectives that you have achieved in the week. What you've missed, how you can change that for next week or something. So you kind of having regular in-depth catch ups, fun structure to keep the momentum going without constantly calling the memory out again. I thought this bus After lunch.

Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. No, it makes perfect sense. And I suppose the other side of it now, as I say, we're into this new working pattern in the new office is really maximizing that time when you are in the office together as much as possible. Would you agree?

Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. I love it. It's great. And then

Speaker 2: Five years, saffron hill, it's a big change, isn't it? It's a big change. Um, what, when you sort of decided to embark on the, on the management side of things, you must've had an idea in your mind of kind of what it would be like, what the challenges would be and, and what, how it would feel to, to be managing a team and be on that, that career path. Isn't what you expected it to be. Has there been any surprises along the way?

Speaker 3: Um, I think it's just, I sort of struggled with when I was quite junior was organization anyway, like prioritizing goals, all that kind of stuff, but then throw management into it kind of store start all over again on organizing your time and how so, how much time you spend on each individual you're managing then also kind of balancing that with the role as you're working on yourself, trying to keep them because that's been the biggest struggle for me. Definitely still gave you time to put a, especially as you keep adding more and more people, uh, they're all at different levels within their career as well, trying to balance, you know, you're giving certain amount of individuals amount of time versus other individuals. So it's one big juggling act really?

Speaker 2: Absolutely. And would you agree that it's, it's important to kind of draw on the support and the other functions within the teams as well as the business? So things like the learning and development function, um, your boss, sand shoes done one of these equals of success sessions before that's the director of, of that insurance perm division. W would you agree that, you know, it's really important to not sort of suffer in silence and try and do all on your own, but see what you can draw on in the business to give you that support to, to kind of grow and manage that team?

Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. It's always useful to get different perspectives as well. And, to have a different perspective on management versus yourself, for examples, it's always good to get as many different points as possible and kind of draw your own stock so that people are much more experienced in management than myself. So that's always definitely helpful.

Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. There's no ego in it is there, I think that's the same for a lot of people at aims that are taking on management roles or target moving into a new sector or doing something a bit different. We're all quite happy to put our hands up. And when we don't know something or we need help to go, I need a bit help with this that, you know, the kind of ego gets put to one side, doesn't it? And it's about kind of getting the job done. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Excellent. So talking about kind of Sanj and the broader division and everything. So we've got the insurance of division going through really exciting time at the moment, a lot of growth and, uh, us in our, in our current areas, but also into new markets within that space as well. One thing that has always been a really common theme for insurance perm, whether it's broken and underwriting claims, actuarial risk, is this idea that everybody in those divisions is a true subject matter expert in their markets. Um, and we like to sell obviously across all the beans, but I, in, in all honesty in particular, your division has really kind of flown the flag for that. So what, what, what is it about being a, you know, what important in your mind makes a real true subject matter expert recruits recruiter, somebody that really knows the vertical market, what would you see from somebody's day to day? The, the is a true SMA?

Speaker 3: Um, I think he's got to find your market interesting, then you really, you got to find that, um, I find it insurance fascinating, to be honest, I love it. Um, so I think that always helps me. There are a lot of recruiters out there that will just recruit and they're not really worried about what market are doing. It's more about skin, okay. The placement done the commission in that sort of stuff. But everyone on our team seems to like, love insurance, not living, it's like read articles if I speak to a candidate or client and they don't understand something, they quite have to say, look, what do you mean by that phrase or terminology or whatever it might be. It's just kind of having that humble nature as well about it, but not better end of the day. We know we're never going to be brokers on drawing sets, but if we can have some sort of level on tech, one standing of the roles that they're ducting in that respect sudden a lot more easily. Yeah,

Speaker 2: Absolutely. So you're, I think that's really a good advice to anybody that, especially people that'll be watching this at the beginning of their career recruitment career in the early days and being an SME and kind of knowing the ins and outs of a specialist, quite technical vertical market might seem quite a daunting task and ages away, but it all starts with, like you say, being quite humble, asking questions, taking an active interest, doing that additional research. And I'm that kind of thirst for knowledge, if you know what I mean and, and kind of understanding your market.

Speaker 3: Uh, I always, whenever I answer you, um, potentially I always say it's mine. Cause I find a lot of them go, I really thought about what sex I want to hire and for and all that sort of stuff. And I think it's really important because at the end of the day, when I'm speaking to people about their job day in, day out, and if you don't find, if you don't find their job interesting, it's gonna be quite a painful process. So you've got to make sure that the industry you work in in terms of recruitment, some something you are passionate about, whether it's insurance, whether it is Laurel, it might be. So, um, insurance to me is definitely something on

Speaker 2: Excellent stuff. Good. Um, and obviously it might seem obvious to us cause we're a bit long in the tooth now, and we've been in recruitment for quite a while. You and I, but why explain to people who are against or starting out in their career, there might be two options for them to go down a route that's a bit more generalist, um, and not, not specialist in terms of the market they work in or to work in a very specialist market vertical like you do and become a true SME. What is the benefit as a recruiter in terms of big going down that specialist market routes?

Speaker 3: I think he's done the market better. I mean, it's, there's that famous phrase, isn't it a Jack of all trades, but no one ever really becomes super successful by knowing loads of different things. Um, it's the same for any industry, right? Obviously if you're in banking, you don't learn every a hundred aspects of banking or if you're in law or something, you always specialize in doing a certain spot. And that's how you progress your career. How you become an expert in situations before where I'm trying to do various different roles. It may not necessarily be within my specialist area. I feel like you said, scratching the surface and everything and never doing a proper kind of full on in-depth job on it. And that it's never missed. BlackLine's never missed my candidates. And you ended up just going into the spiral. Really?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense. You've it's about building credibility as well. Isn't it? And your confidence, you're gonna have more credibility with your clients and your candidates. If they know that you understand the market in a good level of detail and you are going to be more confident and I suppose picking up the phone and especially as a junior recruiter, if you've not been in recruitment long, if you could pick up the phone and talk about a specific markets in some detail is it's going to kind of boost confidence to have those conversations. Isn't it?

Speaker 3: I think I'm trying to express you as well. If they call you up and say, look, can you help out on this role when you say somebody I specialize in, um, they'll respect you a lot more for that. And if you just go back and say, look, this is what I do do. And I've done this day in day out to be able to say that I think builds a lot more credibility going. Yeah, I can do that. Yeah. I can do that. Whatever you say, delivering on it, doesn't benefit you in a long time.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think, I think you'd agree with you that Sanjen and well, all of the directors said, we'd rather as a, when you're doing business development as a consultant or a biller, if you go, you pick up work in the market, you work in and it's okay to say to a client that's just not something we can help you out with. Or, you know, you'd be better off chatting to these guys about, you know, working with you on that role. Um, because we, as you say, it's better to be honest and focus on what you're really good at,

Speaker 3: Isn't it?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Excellent. So finally, we'll, before we kind of finish up for today, you, you are a specialist recruiter in the insurance sector and obviously insurance is very broad. You work specifically in broking and on the underwriting side, if somebody was thinking about moving into recruit in the insurance market, um, what kind of top tips would you give them for being successful in that market in particular? What should they know and consider about the market before they take it on as their kind of specialist vertical to recruit in?

Speaker 3: Well, firstly, the broker, the broker is for sure. Maybe underwriters, not so much, they're all white. Um, yeah, they're all, they're all in very commercial role they're sort of in sales themselves. So they can be quite, quite sneaky. You have to be point with them. So I'd say if you need to be resilient, definitely. And what's the right word, not forceful, but when you obviously negotiation with him, he needs to shine quite cynically there also in a negotiation job in themselves, they know all the tricks of the trade. Yeah. I'm paying a bit, but our bad liable.

Speaker 2: That's fine. See, I can't imagine many brokers in the London markets are going to be watching this, so don't worry. It's absolutely fine. That does that. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely that, um, again, you know, they're all really rose back to the guys, leaning on what we were saying earlier about having that passion about the roles that they do, having a technical knowledge about it. Um, all that kind of stuff. I think builds definitely a good rapport with the types of individuals where we work with.

Speaker 2: I just thought of meetings isn't there. Well, cause I know COVID, you know, kind of throw a spanner in the works for you guys, but when we're in the old office and, and we were obviously working in the office five days a week and stuff pre COVID, I just remember when I'd walk upstairs, the bank has desks for you guys on BCU. You'd always be half-empty cause you're always out at the market meeting somebody and going for coffee or a lunch or a beer or whatever it might be. So it's quite a face-to-face market, isn't it? Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, all the brokers and the underwriters are going to the lawyers, they all do stuff face to face historically Lloyd stones by the 18th century or whenever it was. So I think we're just trying to reflect that and that's what helps build your credibility as well with the market. Um, so I, I used to really enjoy doing that and hopefully, you know, I've all kinds of like make one of my first Cannes. I beatings later actually the first time in ages, be good. Start doing that again. Yeah. Show off the nice new office. We both can be able to sit in front of someone and kind of have those conversations. It's a lot easier. I find see more, if you take the time out of your day to make an effort scope, go meet, it's just a similar stuff like that. And at least not complex stuff going well,

Speaker 2: Absolutely. And much better relationships definitely. Right. Yeah. Lovely. Great. Well, thank you so much. I'll separate all my questions for today. So thank you for taking the time and for giving us your insights and your kind of secrets for success. I appreciate it. Thanks. Take

Speaker 3: Care. Bye.